In this podcast episode, EWG President and co-Founder Ken Cook’s guest is DJ Gerken, president and executive director of the Southern Environmental Law Center, or SELC.
SELC is the largest environmental nonprofit organization in the southeastern United States. It campaigns for all Americans to have access to clean water, clean air and a liveable climate.
Cook and Gerken discuss the Trump administration’s deregulatory actions at the Environmental Protection Agency, including staff and budget cuts, office closures and major rollbacks of critical environmental and public health protections, and how EWG and SELC might push back.
Disclaimer: This transcript was compiled using software and may include typographical errors.
Ken: Hey folks, Ken Cook here, and I'm having another one of my episodes right after the election. People kept coming up to me and saying, Oh my gosh, with Trump coming into office, it's going to be really rough in your field, a lot of pressure on you, going to be a tough four years. And true enough. We can see from the headlines that are appearing in the newspapers daily now, it does dramatically change the work that I do and that colleagues in the public interest community do.
No doubt about that. But it's also a privilege to be able to do the work. I'm lucky because I can wake up every day and know that my job is to push back, and I'm able to do that as my vocation. As you've probably gathered if you've been watching this, I've been talking to a number of leaders in the public interest community and part of the reason why is I'm kind of checking in with them and every person I talk to in that role speaks to the fact that, hey, I'm doing fine.
It's the people I'm working to protect the resources, the clean air, the clean water, the healthy food. That's. Got my attention. That's what I'm worried about. That's what I'm afraid is going to be harmed over the next four years And that's what I'm here to protect. So, you know, we've talked to Peter Galvin, the legendary Founder of the Center for Biological Diversity, Peter Lurie, Dr. Peter Lurie from Center for Science and the Public Interest and we'll be talking to more leaders like that and part of the reason I Wanted to do it is first of all because they're amazing organizations that you need to know about. One reason you need to know about it is because right now, these are the folks who are fighting for all of us to make sure that we honor the laws and policies that have been put in place to protect our air and our water, our land, our food.
And these are the organizations that have your back at this time, folks who are used to fighting. He used to standing up to governments, no matter who is in charge, Democrat or Republican. So today I'm speaking with one of those incredible leaders in the environmental movement, D. J. Gerken. He's the president and executive director of the Southern Environmental Law Center.
Now, if you haven't heard about SELC, I am really delighted to introduce you to them. This is one of those organizations that when I see them on a. legal case or petition to the government. I just immediately feel a little sorry for the sons of bitches on the other side. For decades now, SELC has been fighting the good fight from nine offices across six Southern states, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia.
Their focus. Their core is on the south, but their impact is national, even international in scope. SELC has been instrumental in protecting our health, ensuring the government does what it's supposed to do, when it's supposed to do it, do it on time. They advocate at the state and federal level. to make sure we have the best laws and regulations and that they're actually enforced.
Now, some of the key areas SELC has worked on have been combating the coal industry and getting millions of tons of coal ash waste from power plants removed from these sketchy impoundments that sometimes collapse catastrophically threatening water quality and health. For scores of communities downstream.
This work has also resulted in the retirement of over 150 coal units at over 50 power plants across six States, because when utilities are forced to bear the full cost of their waste and ash is a big part of that waste instead of the taxpayers, coal is no longer the most cost effective power option.
Funny how that works, huh? SELC has been on the front lines of protecting the Atlantic coast from offshore drilling, stopping industrial polluters from dumping toxic chemicals into drinking water, and protecting cornerstone environmental protections. These are all going to be crucial areas in the upcoming battles we're facing in the next four years with the Trump administration.
I've said this on the show before, and I'll say it again, elections have consequences, and some of those consequences are pretty dirty. Since my last episode, Trump's EPA, with Lee Zeldin at the helm, has been unrolling a flurry of news releases, each detailing rollbacks on some of the most crucial climate and environmental regulations.
What protections are in the crosshairs? Zeldin's specifically calling out rules aimed at speeding the nation's shift to electric vehicles, slashing planet warming emissions from power plants, and safeguarding waterways from harmful pollution. How is that making America healthy again? This aligns nicely with Lee Zeldin's ideals of what environmental protection should be.
Mr. Zeldin gave his views on this in a video he posted to X.
Lee Zeldin: Today the Green New Scam ends as the EPA does its part to usher in the golden age of American success. Our actions will lower the cost of living by making it more affordable to purchase a car, heat your home, and operate a business. From the campaign trail to day one and beyond, President Trump has delivered on his promise to unleash energy dominance and lower the cost of living.
We at EPA will do our part to power the great American comeback.
Ken: So essentially we are going to ignore the E and the P parts of the EPA to make it easier for big companies to pollute our air, our water, our land, and harm Americans health. Got it. Another big move from Zeldin's office, EPA plans to close all environmental justice offices.
The New York Times got its hands on an internal memo that outlined the reorganization and elimination of the offices of environmental justice in all 10 EPA regional offices as well as the headquarters in Washington. As journalist Lisa Friedman states, quote, Mr. Zeldin's move effectively ends three decades of work at the EPA to try to ease the pollution that burdens poor and minority communities, which are frequently located near highways, power plants, industrial plants, and other polluting facilities.
Studies have shown that people who live in those communities have higher rates of asthma, heart disease, and other health problems compared with the national average. That's the professional journalistic way to talk about what's going on, but I kind of prefer the take from one of my colleagues at NRDC, Matthew Tejeda, who said, if anybody needed a clearer sign that this administration gives not a single damn for the people of the United States, this is it.
Matthew served at the EPA for 10 years. He knows what he's talking about. Folks, we're only three to four months into a four year battle and already there are so many things driving me to, uh, one episode after another. DJ Gherkin, welcome to the show. I am thrilled to be at the barricades with you in these times.
We're looking at an America and a world with a lot more pollution, a lot more contamination, a lot more negative health outcomes. I'd like to kick it off by asking you, how are you feeling, DJ? Are you spoiling for a fight as always? But still, this is a little daunting, isn't it?
DJ: It's, it's a lot. Well, first, Ken, thank you for that wonderful introduction for SELC.
We so appreciate our partnership with you and with so many other wonderful organizations across the country. Uh, and as for the moment, well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you, I'll answer this two ways, Ken. I'll, I'll, I'll tell you what I'm. Tell my staff and my colleagues, uh, that I firmly believe and I want them to believe.
And then I'll, I'll be honest with you about what I feel from time to time. Right after the election, I sent a message around. Obviously we all knew, well, we all thought we knew what was coming. I think we've all gotten a little more than, than even we anticipated.
Ken: Yeah.
DJ: And tried to remind folks here at SELC, here within the organization.
What we experienced last time and everything we learned, it turns out that those four years were for us, as I'm sure they were for many others, a pivotal time of change internally. We changed in response to the first Trump administration. And part of what that means is we're much better prepared this time around than we were in 2017.
And we put a lot of work into expanding our capacity, having clear strategies. So just trying to remind our team that we're ready. And trying to offer them the perspective that, you know, we're all going to be feeling the impacts of this choice the nation made in so many ways in our personal lives and our professional lives.
And it is a great privilege to be one of the few people that have the opportunity professionally to make some measure of difference. And I personally find a lot of solace in that. It is, it by no means am I kind of strolling through my days, I'll cheer and appreciation for the moment, but this is why I'm here.
It's why my colleagues are here. I know it's why you and your colleagues do what you do and having the opportunity to push back to fight back. If you're the kind of personality that thrives on that kind of scrap it, it is a, it is a bright spot. So for all that, I will say, uh, I read the news too much. I'm sure you and all the folks watching do as well.
I am surprised occasionally at the news story that will just tip me below the waters for 24 hours or so. It's not, it's, it's often not an environmental story. It's, it's, it's not even something that affects me directly, but it's just something about the story typifies the complete lack of integrity, the complete lack of compassion, complete lack of respect for the rule of law.
And those are the things that seem to. Get me reeling so far. I've been able to bounce back within 24 hours. Every time. Uh, I'll tell you the last thing I told my colleagues is, you know, among the things that threat in addition to everything, you named the environmental progress. We've made our environmental future basic idea of what our government is for and what it's supposed to do and who it's supposed to work for is at stake.
And there I do have a very strong feeling. You know, occasionally I'll talk to someone who's nihilist. There's nothing we can do, it's fight in the streets or nothing, and by all means, go out in the streets and protest, but democracy works as long as we believe it does. And that can feel Pollyannish on some of these days, but recourse to the courts, standing up for the rule of law, standing up for integrity and basic fact.
I do think this is a grand illusion that we have all been embracing for a couple centuries, and it has done us a lot of good, and I am determined to cling stubbornly to the faith. That this thing works, and that it means something, and that it is real. And I think that's part of the role we all play in this moment is just stubbornly refusing to stop believing that this is how it's supposed to be.
Ken: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And it puts, um, fresh light on the importance of individuals. You know, we might have thought these institutions were protecting us and that we needed to protect the institutions. And I, I can make an argument as to why that's correct. But institutions. Can't even turn on their own lights.
They can't file petitions. They can't enforce regulations. They can't inspire anybody. They just sit there. It takes people to animate them and the people who are in the institutions now, I'll start with the EPA News coming out in the last 10 days from a Trump cabinet meeting, the first cabinet meeting no less, that it's their ambition to dramatically reduce EPA's ability to do its job.
At first they said a 65 percent cut in staff, and then they walked that back and said 65 percent cut in resources, right? In funding, who knows where it will end up, but we do know that Administrator Zeldin has very aggressively gone after all kinds of grants. Climate change grants, uh, environmental justice grants, uh, we know that people are leaving the agency in disturbing numbers, uh, that, uh, we built an agency backup at EPA and the same with Interior and same with FDA for a few years and only to see it possibly torn down now.
And I, I said, when Zeldin was announced that the most important thing to know about him was not not his position on any particular issue. Uh, but that his job is to destroy the EPA as a effective regulating force, as an effective policymaking force, that really the, the crown jewel globally has been for many decades of environmental protection.
How do you look at your priorities against that context, EJ, where you might fight a clean air fight, you might fight a safe drinking water fight? Statute by statute go through and all of those issues will be presented to us. And I know you'll be in court and you'll be testifying and active in many ways on all of them, but the basic idea of tearing down the agency,
DJ: so
Ken: it can't do its job and therefore people lose faith in the government's ability to do its job and they want it torn down even more.
It's a, it's a virtuous cycle if you're about nihilism, right?
DJ: Yeah.
Ken: Oh, absolutely.
DJ: And self fulfilling, right? It takes, it takes decades to earn the trust of the American people that these institutions will work. And, and let's be honest. Even an august agency like EPA still had work to do to earn trust from many communities across the country that had been underserved and they had been working very hard on that in the past four years in particular.
But it only takes, it only takes a short amount of time if you're willing to toss out anything resembling norms, anything resembling the kind of agreed rules of the road for how our government operates. To tear it down, to tear down that trust and, and as you noted, to tear down the internal structures of the agency that get things done.
This is a job. This is a profession. These, these folks inside the agency who have, some of them have devoted their career to, there is a lot of, a lot of insight, a lot of intelligence, a lot of experience earned inside their heads that is now walking out the door because they've given up hope. Yeah. On the government or they're being forced out.
I don't want to sound naively optimistic because these times are really hard and we're going to lose a lot of important ground is the short answer. But talking to my colleagues, talking to my board, I've really emphasized, you know, we all know this pendulum swings back and forth, right? And it has busted through all the guardrails.
The pendulum's way over here now, but it will come back again and it'll come back because we're collectively pulling on it. So in the seeds of their overreach. Is where the next opportunity for progress is going to come from. Absolutely. They are going to do lasting damage to the agency, and that is, I think, the big problem.
Even when the pendulum swings back, it's going to take a long time to rebuild what has been broken. But, the more we can make, and this is where, you know, that Clean Air Act case, that Clean Water Act case, being in the communities, touching the ground, is, I think, so important. Is to show people, even people who believe strongly that they support what's happening.
Because who doesn't support government efficiency? Who's going to make the normative case for big government just for the sake of big government? If you follow these issues at a remove, at a distance, some of what's being said can be very appealing. Unless and until you realize how it affects your life.
how it affects your community. I grew up in Western North Carolina. If you're from Western North Carolina and you love the national forest, well, they've suddenly laid off most of their staff that are rebuilding the roads after the hurricane, right? And so that is, that is touching communities all across the region.
And they get that my, my neighbors, my, our communities, our friends, they get that no matter who they voted for. So we're going to have opportunities in what's happening, the silver lining in this cloud. Is that the more we can make sure we cut through the chaos and build a consistent story of what's at stake and what we're losing as you're doing here with this podcast, the more we lay the groundwork for a bigger coalition for environmental protection and for so many things we care about.
And that's the path forward. Then we're going to have a generation of work to. Rebuild what has been torn down, but that's that's the foundation block. And that rebuilding is helping people remember. Oh, gosh, we had a big environmental in the 70s for a reason because this affects all of us. Right?
Ken: Yeah. And, you know, you said something that I feel very deeply, which is what a privilege to be able to to be on the barricades to be professionally involved in pushing back.
DJ, as you, as you look across all that's coming at us, I know SELC does a lot of different things, but I, I think of you as pugnacious, effective, tireless litigators.
DJ: Oh, thank you.
Ken: Tell us a little bit about public interest law. I describe it as, you know, that, that's the law that tries to get the government to do what it's supposed to do.
And public, great public interest law firms like SELC and there are others, Earth Justice in our field, uh, Center for Biological Diversity, NRDC, other great litigators out there. But SELC has really carved out an important role by taking on these tough cases down South. So when you look at the Trump administration coming in, What are some of the main concerns you have, main frontline fights that you're already in, I'm sure, or at least getting ready for, DJ?
DJ: Yeah, we did a lot of work coming in, you know, planning for two election scenarios. We don't normally do that with our work planning, but there were such radically different universes, we felt the need to do that. And, uh, so even coming into the election, again, lessons learned from the first administration.
I had a, uh, a forecast from my colleagues of how this would play out. So far, mostly right, but missed one thing very big and important. So, you know, the first thing, uh, that we saw happen was actually not major regulatory rollbacks. That takes time. It was not even the collapse in enforcement because those cases are moving and they take time to unwind and new cases are getting built.
It was project approvals. It was things that should never have been blessed by the federal government. Who violated the law getting rubber stamped through because of political connections. So that was kind of round one for us in the first Trump administration. We expected that to give us an example of a really big multi year campaign.
We worked on in the first Trump administration was the work to stop the Atlantic coast pipeline, which would have extended from West Virginia down to North Carolina. For years, multiple agencies across state and federal government had been telling that pipeline the route you picked is disastrous, it's gonna cause huge impacts, we can't permit this, you gotta make changes, and then there was an election, and all those agencies pivoted on a dime and said, here's your approval.
Good luck and build quickly. And this is a big natural gas pipeline. Yeah, a major source of climate pollution for generations. Locking us in. That's right. Happy to say we were able to stop that one. We've got another generation of pipelines coming now. But that was, that was kind of the first wave, was just rubber stamp approvals for things that never met the standard, never should have been allowed under law.
And then later on, we saw the efforts to really tear down the regulations that keep us all safe from pollution, our clean air, our clean water, that, that implement these 50 year old statutes that represent a great national bargain to value our environment, um, over shorter term interests. And we saw that, and so that ended up being a lot of litigation around that front.
That's still, I think, kind of what we're seeing, and along the way, enforcement falls off, and we end up trying to step in as public interest lawyers to enforce environmental protection laws against bad actors, polluters. Of course, we can't do, even collectively, the movement. We can't, we can't, all the wonderful environmental organizations can't fill the job of state and federal government.
Our model usually is to use what we know how to do. As leverage to force industry and to force the government to do its job well,
Ken: right?
DJ: But we can close the gap somewhat. And in doing so highlight what's being abandoned. As I said, that's part of bringing the pendulum back. It doesn't, you know, stepping in and filling that enforcement void.
So all that I think is how it's playing out now. The difference is this kind of doge chainsaw phenomenon on the front end of all of that. Like the executive orders are alarming and painful to read, but they don't actually do much. very much. Mostly what they say is bring me a study in 60 days, or, you know, I'd like you to amend the regulations to do this.
So there's, there's another wave coming with most of those executive orders. But boy, the staff cuts, right? The, the, as you said, Zeldin's eviscerating EPA, what's going on at the agriculture interior, all the resource agencies, that's having immediate, a much faster impact on the work than I anticipated. And I would also say the, um, willingness.
Yes. to use to weaponize the bureaucracy for their objectives without regard to what the law says. So, you know, we've heard rumors of the Army Corps being told to fast track fossil fuel projects, which I expected, but to slow walk renewable energy projects. Which I did not expect. And so it, there's some of that too, but it is largely the playbook we knew would come and it's such a frenzy right now, but this is going to play out over years.
The real impacts are going to play out over years and we are still very much, all of us, in this fight, in this game. Before the rubber hits the road, they're going to have to go through all of us and we're going to really catch a lot more than people might expect based on the news coverage right now.
Ken: No, I think that's right.
And I was very proud to be an environmentalist during Trump one. I felt like we were, you know, treading water. I felt like we were wasting a lot of time and effort just to keep things on track. But looking back on it, and I think I'll feel the same way in Trump too. I'm proud of colleagues like you and your team at SELC.
Uh, our sister and brother organizations that are really, um, standing up to this administration and I shudder to think how far they're willing to go. What if they don't obey court orders? There's some indication that they're thinking maybe that's optional for them. We'll see, but that's a case where institutions can take you so far, but individuals really have to.
You know, give meaning to what institutions stand for, say a little bit about the, how big is SELC and how many lawsuits are you involved in at any given time? I know you've got all kinds of policy initiatives as well, DJ, but it's a muscular organization. You've, I think the public needs to know the, our audience needs to know that we've, you know, we've got a real ally in SELC.
DJ: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. We are, uh, and we're, we're proud to be, because I think it's important for the niche we play in the national movement, a really robust organization with a lot of capacity and critically a lot of reach. So, you know, we are one of the cohort and we're not the only one of organizations that are very committed to being place based.
Uh, we are of the South. Our mission is the South. What we pair with that place based focus is the reaching capacity of a national organization. So we're 230 staff, about 110 lawyers, we've got, in addition to those lawyers, communications professionals, geospatial analysts, science and policy analysts, lobbyists, and policy advocates, a couple organizers now.
And our model is to work with great environmental organizations like yours, be their partner, be their lawyer, bring our resources to the table, and do what we do. We are a partner to the grassroots movement, uh, and at this point, we've worked with, I think, certainly every organization in the South, and most of them nationally.
And what I think we do particularly well, uh, and that allows us to produce results that I think are outsized for our scale, is there's something really powerful about touching the ground and being at work in all of these communities. We earn expertise in environmental law and policy, as you do and others do, but our, I remind our staff every day, our most important expertise is in the South.
And what that means is important, not just for the South. It means that One, we see emerging issues in the environmental movement early because we are connected with communities and grassroots organizations all across the South. We see patterns. This is now happening in this community, in this state, this community, in this state.
And what is the gap in the law? What is the gap in policy that's allowing this to happen? It gives us an opportunity to get early on that and we critically for making progress in court in a policy forum, you know, in campaigns, trying to persuade the public. The best story wins, you know, this right? And the best story has real people impacted.
And so one of the things I think we really bring to the national stage being so place based is. We bring powerful local stories to the national stage, paired with environmental law policy and expertise. So, you know, there's a handful of organizations with our reaching capacity nationwide, and depending on the issue, you know, there'll be four or five organizations with the capacity to really engage at the federal level.
And depending on the issue, we're one of those four or five. And often around that table, someone will say, well, does anyone know anyone that's actually impacted by this? So that we can bring a case, so that we can get them up to D. C. and we're the first to raise our hand. Because that's, that's really our great strength.
And so we, we see a very tight connection to our place based focus on the South. And then the way I describe our mission to our colleagues is, we don't do anything at the national stage because it's happening at the national stage. Everything we do, we do because it's relevant to the South. But once we take it on, we'll go anywhere to get the win.
And so if we have to change the whole nation's mind, that's what we'll do. If we have to, and this is a real example, go to the United Kingdom and lobby to change tax policy, we'll do that. Wherever the win is for the South, that's where we go, and it takes us to some really interesting places. But that's our model.
And I think it's, I think it's a really powerful compliment to what others are working on at the national level. And it is completely faithful to, and in fact possible only because our first priority is our place based protection of the region. But then Having the reach and capacity to go wherever the solution is means that along the way, we do a lot of good work for everyone else too.
I really like to think we do.
Ken: Whenever I think of SELC, I think practicing environmental law in the South, that's like training at altitude. You know, you just, you got, you got that extra natural strain built in. Uh, A fundamentally conservative region with a powerful love for the outdoors and natural world and the environment married with it, but a contradiction there, right?
Because you have fossil fuel interests, big power companies, they've been having their way with state legislatures. from time immemorial. And so, I think when you learn to practice environmental law or practice environmental policy in a legislature in the South, you bring some, some extra grit, some extra, some extra mileage on the tires and it's, it's welcome, I have to say.
DJ: Well, thank you. I love that training in altitude metaphor. I will say when I, I started at SELC in 2004, I was briefly at a law firm in DC. I clerked on the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals, which at that time was one of the most conservative federal appellate benches in the country. But coming to practice environmental law in North Carolina was not where you came if you wanted to get your name in the newspapers with big, Court of Appeals wins, you came for the love of the work and the commitment to it.
But I'll say that has been the story since the mid eighties when we opened our doors, and credit to our founder and, you know, many people's shoulders I'm standing on for finding a way to an advocacy style and approach that is, really centers integrity and speaking common sense. And, you know, speaking to the values we all share, as you said, people love their outdoors.
They love their wildlife. I was saying earlier, they love the National Forest, right? And we have learned to build from those values. There are communities where we are doing important climate change work, and you will not hear us say the word climate change, you know, to that community, because that's not the way to make progress.
Just an example I love, Ken. South Carolina, which is not a progressive state, not what you think of as a bastion of renewable energy policy, has a great solar bill. One of my colleagues lobbied for that legislation, and there's a photo of the bill signing ceremony. There's the governor in the middle, there's my colleague to the governor's left, and to the governor's right is the Tea Party wing of the South Carolina legislature.
And the bill is called the Energy Freedom Act, and what they had in common was that bill. We were in it for climate change. They were in it because no utility can tell me what I can put on my roof. But understanding that value, that property rights value, and where it aligned was the key to making that progress.
And that's what we do every day down here.
Ken: And you do it so well. Let me ask you this. Let's say you're a second or third year law student. And you, you're thinking, is this really the right time for me to pop out of law school, maybe with some student loans underneath me, and take a job fighting? at a non profit organization to protect environmental law and regulation.
What do you say to, uh, and you must be hiring some of them or talking to some of them pretty constantly.
DJ: Yeah.
Ken: What do you say to those young attorneys, DJ? It's a very different world than we came up in, right? It is.
DJ: Uh, although I think the recipe for success in this career is the same. It ever has been.
When I'm being glib, I say we have a zeal based economy here at SELC. The biggest predictor to success in our work that I've ever seen, we hire smart people, they go to great schools, they have great track records, and all that's important, but it is not the predictor of success, it is the passion for the work.
We make our own trouble. You know, we're not a government lawyer, the agency comes in and tells you, here's the case. We're not a private lawyer who can pay my bill. We work in the public interest, and so we go seeking opportunities to make people's lives better, to preserve our environment for future generations, and so It is possible to just get lost in the scale of it.
It is possible to work every day, plugging away, and nothing really ever comes of it. Having a passion for seeing your work make a difference in someone's life, and particularly for our organization. You know, being able to go to a place that you protected, go to a community and meet people you helped.
Nothing better. Very motivating. Yeah, that's right. You'll never run out of passion for this job. That's what we offer. And if that's what drives you, and it's not for everybody, you know, there are people doing wonderful work who go the other direction. They go nationally and globally. They want to be in DC.
They want to be in Paris. They're working on big policy. They have a little piece. of a huge policy with a massive impact, I think what we offer is the chance to be, you know, the cause of a really tangible impact that you can touch, and if that's what drives you, then this kind of work, you won't find anything better.
Ken: Well, no one does it better than the Southern Environmental Law Center, D. J. We're always proud whenever we can. Pair up with you, team up with you to take on these big fights, and uh, I just know you're going to be there for the long haul during these next three to four years, where it's going to be some pretty tough sledding, but um, like I say, it's never been a better time to be an environmentalist, tough as it might seem, and uh, we need everyone's zeal and commitment, so thank you for coining the term zeal economy.
I'm going to be lifting that and using it. At my own office. So thanks so much. Appreciate your time. Anything else you want to say to folks out there as they're looking at these, uh, headwinds?
DJ: Uh, well, I'll say thank you, Ken, for having us and thank you for your partnership. And I would say, uh, watch their feet and don't read their tweets.
Pay attention to what's actually happening in the world and you'll feel much more centered and much more ready for the long fight that's ahead.
Ken: Amen to that. D. J. Gherkin, Southern Environmental Law Center, President and Executive Director. A pleasure to have you on. I have these episodes all the time.
This one made me feel really good. Thanks for the fight, brother. Thank you, Ken. DJ Gherkin, thank you for joining us and thank you for all the work you and your colleagues do at the Southern Environmental Law Center. One badass environmental group. I also want to thank you out there for listening.
If you'd like to learn more, be sure to check out our show notes for additional links to take a deeper dive into today's discussion. Make sure to follow our show on Instagram at Ken Cook's podcast. And if you're interested in learning more about EWG, Head over to EWG. org or check out the EWG Instagram account at Environmental Working Group.
If you like this episode, send it to a friend who you think might like it too. Environmentalism is all about meeting people where they're at. And if you're listening to this, you probably know someone who might be interested in today's episode. They just don't know it yet. My ask is that you send it to that person or as many people as you see fit.
Today's episode was produced by the amazing Beth Rowe and Mary Kelly. Our show's theme music is by Moby, and thanks again for listening.
